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Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

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Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:31 pm

I am a big Formula 1 fan, and I hope that I'm not the only one. Below is the Team and Car lineup for the 2012 season with Drivers, Chassis and Engine listed

With the first race in Australia drawing near, this thread will serve as a place to discuss all things F1. cheers

In case you aren't a F1 fan, maybe I can get your blood going with this:


In order of Constructors Championship Points from 2011:
(Pictures to follow when I upload them to my own space, so as not to leech)

Red Bull Racing:
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Chassis: RB8
Engine: Renault RS27-2012



McLaren:
Jenson Button
Lewis Hamilton

Chassis: MP4-27
Engine: Mercedes-Benz FO 108Z



Ferrari:
Fernando Alonso
Felipe Massa

Chassis: F2012
Engine: Ferrari 056



Mercedes:
Michael Schumacher
Nico Rosberg

Chassis: F1 W03
Engine: Mercedes-Benz FO108Z



Lotus:
(Formerly "Lotus-Renault")
Kimi Raikkonen
Romain Grosjean

Chassis: E20
Engine: Renault RS27- 2012



Force India:
Paul di Resta
Nico Hulkenberg

Chassis: VJM05
Engine: Mercedes-Benz FO108Z



Sauber:
Kamui Kobayashi
Sergio Perez

Chassis: C31
Engine: Ferrari 056



Toro Rosso:
Daniel Ricciardo
Jean-Eric Vergne

Chassis: STR7
Engine: Ferrari 056



Williams:
Pastor Maldonado
Bruno Senna

Chassis: FW34
Engine: Renault RS27- 2012



Caterham:
(Formerly "Team Lotus")
Heikki Kovalainen
Vitaly Petrov

Chassis: CT01
Engine: Renault RS27-2012



HRT:
Pedro de la Rosa
Narain Karthikeyan

Chassis: F112
Engine: Cosworth CA2012



Marussia:
(Formerly "Virgin Racing")
Timo Glock
Charles Pic

Chassis: MR01
Engine: Cosworth CA2012



Last edited by HWKII on Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:54 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:48 pm

The inescapable reality of this season: There are some ugly cars on the grid, due to the stepped nose design. Apparently they are so ugly, that for 2013 they are going to change that regulation again so that the teams can't build cars nearly as ugly as they did this season. I am looking at YOU Ferrari.

I'm also struck by the fact that HRT, have painted their car eerily similar to an old favorite of mine, the Lotus 49 from the 1969 season, really the death of the beautiful Lotus Green/Gold and the start of the "Flying Cigarette Advertisements" era of Formula 1.

To compare:




Good taste, IMO. It'll still be a crap car. Wink

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:34 am

I saw the Sky F1 introduction tonight and the feeling it evoked was... boredom.



The BBC intro was vastly superior, really gets you excited to watch a race:


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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:50 pm

Marussia has signed a female test driver, MarĂ­a de Villota, she'll be their third driver this year. Given the pace of Marussia, she might even get a race start (purely conjecture on my part). The last time a woman started an F1 race, it was for Williams in 1976, Lella Lombardi.

Excellent. cheers

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  Forgetful on Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:13 pm

I'm all for equal treatment and happy for a young driver. I just hope that it's about skill and not a case of Danic'itis.

I just can't help but think that there's some young talented male driver out there who, sex aside, is a better driver in every way, and he's not getting an opportunity because someone wants to push a girl through for publicity.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:45 pm

Forgetful wrote:I'm all for equal treatment and happy for a young driver. I just hope that it's about skill and not a case of Danic'itis.

I just can't help but think that there's some young talented male driver out there who, sex aside, is a better driver in every way, and he's not getting an opportunity because someone wants to push a girl through for publicity.

/Soapbox

Fair enough; however I know that there are at least 2 or 3 other female Indy drivers out there who consistently beat their male counterparts. They are not named Danica Patrick, but they are out there. Smile I suspect that in the last 36 years there has been more than 1 woman qualified to start a Formula 1 race.

I would also point out that, despite the fact that Pastor Maldanado was being regularly beaten by Rubens Barichello last season, who is 402 years old, Rubens was let go because he did not bring enough money to Williams. For that matter, and putting aisde my obvious Rubens bias, Nico Hulkenberg who now drives for Force India, was replaced by Pastor Maldanado, despite being the better driver in every possible way, due to the fact that Pastor brought Argentinian oil money to the table. Karthikayen is still driving an F1 car this year, despite being useless, because he brings India to the table. And Bruno Senna only went to Renault last year because of what the Senna name brings to the table, and all of the Brazil money.

All of these guys have talent, top 50 or 100 drivers in the world, almost no doubt in my mind, but top 24? No.

The root of the problem is really that there are 12 teams and 24 possible driver slots, in the most expensive sport in the world, during an economic downturn. Where as the lesson in baseball/football/futbol/basketball is always "Work hard and be talented enough and no matter where you come from or who your parents are, you have the same shot as everyone else to make it to 'the league'", the lesson in Formula 1 is a much harsher, and perhaps more realistic/gritty lesson, "Mommy and Daddy can write a check to get you what you want."

I want to see more privateer teams, I want to see the cost of running an F1 team go down so that even massive corporations like BMW, Audi, Toyota and Honda don't have to balk at the pricetag. I want the FIA to shift the Constructor's Championship payout scale so that the teams in last place can afford to field a car before the final winter testing session.... I want teams like Ferrari and Red Bull to actually adhere to the spending limits so as to stop making it impossible (or meaningless) for smaller teams to get involved. God bless Peter Sauber and Frank Williams, I have absolutely no idea how they manage to stay in the sport.

/Soapbox

If my tone sounds preachy or aggitated, it's certainly not with you, Forgetful at all. F1 is an imperfect sport, which I love. You just happened to touch on something, totally gender unrelated, that is something I've wanted to write on for some time. Sooooo, thanks for the prompt! Very Happy

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  Forgetful on Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:54 pm

I would say that the field of male drivers isn't as deep as it should be because of the money issues you mentioned, and that's why when you go get the best female drivers they are able to find themselves in positions better than last.

It's not like I have a firmly held belief that women can't be good drivers, but I also have to think that they would have stated to excel by now. It's not like they haven't had opportunities to do so.

I wish racing were more of a meritocracy, which is why I think I'm so enamored with sim racing.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:04 am

Forgetful wrote:I would say that the field of male drivers isn't as deep as it should be because of the money issues you mentioned, and that's why when you go get the best female drivers they are able to find themselves in positions better than last.

It's not like I have a firmly held belief that women can't be good drivers, but I also have to think that they would have stated to excel by now. It's not like they haven't had opportunities to do so.

I wish racing were more of a meritocracy, which is why I think I'm so enamored with sim racing.

And I'm not accusing you of anything, and at the risk of this becoming a dangerous conversation: I think that the same thing could have been said about African American head-football coaches in College Football. They have been out there, they have been talented, they haven't necessarily been given the chance to coach at the big schools until long after they should have been. I don't think it's lack of talent. I also think that it would be stupid to hire anyone but the very best, regardless of race color or creed, but sometimes business, and athletics, is more stupid than we'd like to admit.

And for what it's worth, according to Wikipedia, there've been 4 female F1 drivers in it's history. Which is a long time. Women are physically more capable of being fighter pilots too, they typically handle high G forces better than men. Not a lot of little girls grow up being encouraged to drive racecars. Michelle Schumacher would not have been given a Go-Kart at the age of 3. Wink

I do agree about real racing vs sim racing. No one needs to bring a billion dollar sponsor to the table to win a GT5 race, or get a spot in one of our league events. Or for that matter, to get to go to the Nissan GT Academy and get a shot at an LMP car.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  robiker on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:14 am

HWKII wrote:I want to see the cost of running an F1 team go down

Realistically, that's probably a good idea at this time, but there are plenty of other motor racing series to get involved in if F1 is too expensive for you. I miss the good old days when teams were free to develop innovative engines and chassis, and there were competing tire companies involved.
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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:53 am

Off topic by now but: I. Want. Interlagos. In GT5. Now. What a Face

Just rewatched the Brazilian Grand Prix and what a tremendous and historic racetrack.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:50 pm

Finally managed to catch the Australian Grand Prix 2012, so I figured I would share some of my thoughts:

  • Problems for the Prancing Horse - Ferrari's car is as atrociously slow as it is astronishgly ugly. Ferrari's getting knocked out of Q2 by Torro Rossos and a Force India? Not a good situation at all. Fernando drove the nuts off that car, and to put it in P5 to finish the race is respectable, but I am not really prepared to give him the credit a lot of people are given how close that Williams was to him over several laps at the end of the race, prior to Pastor Maldanado putting it in to a wall. Also, P5 in a race where only half the field managed to finish, could well have been an 8th or 9th. As I recalll, Rack and Ttourist are big Ferrari fans; not going to be a good year for this team.
  • What the F-Duct? - Mercedes has been clever with their car this year, which is both surprising and not. It's surprising in that no one thought of this last year, as the DRS / Adjustable Aerodynamic regulations were not changed. Surprising too in that Mercedes had no race pace. Nico finished the race 1 second off the pace per race lap run, and that was after a relatively late Safety Car. Whatever Mercedes has done (theories about the F-Duct holes in the nose and rear wing endplates abound), I really don't want to see the FIA messing with the regulations in the middle of a season.
  • Frank Williams, what have you done... - Awesome to see that the car appears to have pace with the new engine, the Cosworth engine continues to be quite terrible compared to the Renault and Mercedes engines. Less awesome to see idiots driving for Williams who do things like crash their car in to walls and other people. Yeah, I'm a big Rubens fan, but Pastor Maldanado had a chance to surpass William's points total for all of 2011 in the first race of 2012... and put it in to a wall. That's just not something Barichello does with a race car. Shame to see this great team from the sport's history lose out all of it's points because both drivers retired their cars in to other cars, or the wall.
  • McLaren looks insanely fast. Last year's race was Vettel from Hamilton, and the gap was 22.2 seconds. This year, Button from Vettel and the gap was 2.1 seconds. A slightly bigger than four tenths per lap change of fortunes. Albert Park does tend to suit mechanical grip and top speed; not generally RBR strengths, but still, McLaren looks mighty. Calvins will be quite pleased - so long as it's not Button who keeps on winning. Wink
  • Lotus - Looking fast, Kimi looks good, Romain looked amazing in qualifying... But this was a track that Renault finished on the podium for in 2011 with drivers who are either no longer in F1 or driving for teams much lower down the pecking order.
  • HRT - How is it possible that a team could get worse after being in the sport for 3 years? There has to be another manufacturer that wants to get involved, it's sort of sad watching HRT plod along.
  • Caterham - Looking much improved, though both cars did have to retire. Pace was much better than last year, reliability still plagues them.
  • Marussia - Timo Glock might just have secured some serious money for his team with a 12 place finish. Sure, 12th was effectively last place, but hey, his car finished the race. Kind of. 57 laps anyway. Marussia would have killed for a 12th and 13th last season.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  timneyb on Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:37 am

Boo... Stupid DVR decided not to record Qualifying last night. What am I supposed to do while I drink my coffee?

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:10 pm

Torrentz. Cool

I'm downloading Qualifying as we speak. McLaren appears to have the same Qualifying dominance that Red Bull enjoyed last year. Appears that the Red Bull is quick in the race, and easier on it's tires, but it does make you wonder what they've got on their car that they can get so quick in Qualifying. The Mercedes F-Duct bit is quite comical, as their race pace hasn't been brilliant, but they get half a second in qualifying laps because they can use DRS all the time in Qualifying and they have that massive speed advantage.

One thing I wish they would adjust is; if DRS is going to be useable only in certain areas during the race, make it only useable in those areas during Q. If it's going to be useable everywhere during Q, make it useable anywhere you're brave enough to use it during the race.

As with last year, the interesting battle is going to be in the front bit of the midfield. Ferrari, Lotus, Williams, STR, Sauber and Force India all look quite close. And I suspect Mercedes is more in that area during the race. Wink

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:14 pm

Also wanted to say - watched the Australian Grand Prix a 2nd time, and I wanted to qualify something I said about: Fenando Alonso's race was absolutely epic. The Ferrari may be slow, but that was probably the drive of his life and really demonstrated something I didn't see a whole lot of last year - Alonso is an extremely talented driver who gives Ferrari half a chance to get some wins despite an inferior car. Maybe not this year, but then again Ferrari has announced they will bring a totally new car to China.

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...Just imagine: Most of them used to have engines in the front, a seat instead of a bed, and no wings. Not like cars at all.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  timneyb on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:15 pm

HWKII wrote:Torrentz. Cool

Since grad school, I forgot how to steal.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:27 pm

timneyb wrote:
HWKII wrote:Torrentz. Cool

Since grad school, I forgot how to steal.

I can't get the coverage here, or I'd pay for it. That media still has borders is absurd to me, but there's nothing I can do about it.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  timneyb on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:32 pm

HWKII wrote:
I can't get the coverage here, or I'd pay for it. That media still has borders is absurd to me, but there's nothing I can do about it.
Saw an oatmeal cartoon that summed it up pretty well.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:38 pm

Yeah - basically. There's an excellent re-write of that one from an New Zealander's perspective too.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  timneyb on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:28 am

And now the DVR didn't record the main event. I'm not sure they even test the software on these things. 3pm replay is now set to record. I don't know if I'll get to watch it, at least not before racing tonight, and my only safe news sources have been reduced to CNN and the NYTimes. Mad

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Adam Parr has left Williams. Shocked

He was slated to be the successor to Frank Williams but has resigned to "bring more balance" in to his life. This is quite surprising, and disappointing. I've always found Adam Parr to be one of the better guys on the paddock, anytime he was interviewed by the BBC last year, it was one of the highlights of the whole show. Now with Williams returning to a more prominant form, it's a real shame to see the man largely responsible for securing their capital step aside.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:55 am

Going to put this in a spoiler, just in case Timney hasn't seen the race yet.

Not safe for people who haven't seen the race:
I had heard about the radio message, to Perez, "Chico, we need this position. We need this position..." but until I actually heard it for myself, and saw how close he was to Fernando and how close he was to his first ever race win in his 2nd season in Formula 1, after an absolutely epic drive through the whole race in a car which is not the fastest, against a Ferrari driver by a man recognized as the most talented driver in the world...

Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep! Bleep!

Sergio Perez deserved to win this race, and I have to believe that he doesn't have that off at the end if his engineer didn't basically rip him back in to reality with what sounded awfully close to Team Orders.

Vettel refusing to pit his RB8 after being ordered to do so, due to critical brake / KERS failure, adds a bit of legend to this kid. On the one hand, if you're Christian Horner, you want to wring his neck. On the other hand, how often does a driver pull a "I'm sorry, the radio isn't working, I cannot comply"? Absolutely spectacular.

Ferrari's message to Alonso was almost enough to bring a tear to my eye, "This is the most beautiful, the most beautiful, beautiful, thank you. Thank you so much, this is such a great win for you, and for the team." from his race engineer. Tremendous.

lol! At Nico Rosberg suggesting in a pre-race interview that he doesn't need to stay late in the garage to help his engineers because he has more natural talent than Vettel. Who has won something like 21 races and 2 world championships in 3 years.

Massa, y u still drive F1 car?

Bruno Senna looked pretty brilliant in that Williams; I said back at the other forum that I thought Lotus would have been in great shape with Bruno Senna, they opted for Romain Grojean instead who is 0 for 2 in even finishing races. In fact, he'd be 0 for 2 if the score was for "finished more than a dozen laps in any Grand Prix". So that's going well.

Fernando Alonso looks like V from V for Vendetta. Amusing article before this Grand Prix about how his face / facial hair makes him look like a tradgedian.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  Dan_Zitions on Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:34 am

Finally got the chance last night to catch the 2nd race on the DVR.
Glad I always run an hour over the scheduled end of event...

Heck of a show. Can't remember the last time a race was so up for grabs. The boys in Red are probably still giggling in their sleep. ( I figure it's been a week, it should be out of the bag by now...?)

I am beginning to feel for the "Lotus" team. 2 DNFs after great qualifying efforts. Man, they need the track time badly. I hope they don't give up just yet. I can see that car winning a race this year if they can get a few races in.

Am I the only one who found it was really nice to see and hear all the names of drivers and manufacturer's that weren't red bull and the like..? There were names I was hearing that haven't made it out of the pre-race mention in years. Love it when the unsung teams make a good run, and there were many that did well. I think I counted at least three team principles with tears in their eyes at the end. That's gotta be some kind of record or something.

Well worth the rain delay for the finish. And for the chance to see Senna and others in some of the revisits to past rain races. Couldn't believe how open the cockpit on his car was compared to now. I watched his last race as it happened, it was just so painfully obvious seeing the cars then from now.

And to think... This season is just getting started... ?B)

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  Forgetful on Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:11 pm

I've watched both races so far this season and I must say I'm impressed with the racing. Ugly cars don't look so ugly when the racing is good.

I was seriously disappointed with Button's performance in Malaysia. After watching him put on a clinic in Australia, I was hoping he would break out as one of the early season contenders. A little bad luck goes a long way, but when weather is a factor like that, anything can happen.

I'll be paying a lot more attention to F1 this season. Might have to open a pool on how many rounds before Massa gets yanked.

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  HWKII on Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:28 pm



China should bring a new Ferrari chassis, so at least then the ugliest of the ugly ducklings will have a proper nose. I hope. Mad

I think it's extremely interesting how the loss of the blown diffuser has upset Vettel's race more than it has Marks, in the same way that people were interested in how Mark had gotten so much slower with the new tires (same this year) and the blown diffuser. Which raises a question in my mind: Does driver style, more maybe than driver talent, play more in to winning championships in this era of very minute regulations? Alonso can strangle the Ferrari around the race track because he drivers by brute force a lot of the time. Massa, driving the same car, can hardly finish a lap without losing a place because the care just plain doesn't suit him. Similarly, there's a lot of talk about how Kimi hasn't been able to show his real pace this season because his steering is too heavy, where as Romaine Grojean has been able to wrestle the apparently heavy-steering Lotus to the sharp end of Qualifying quite nicely.

Also, food for thought: Shouldn't one of the top teams put in one banker lap on the Option tire in Q3 just to eliminate HRT and Marussia via the 107% rule? One hard run lap on those tires shouldn't ruin them for use in the race, and with the Prime tire showing signs of at least being a viable racing tire this year... please, someone... We can have a Grand Prix with 20 cars. We basically already do. Razz

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Re: Formula 1 - 2012 - The Official Discussion Thread

Post  Dan_Zitions on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:17 am

It seems my post from Saturday/Sunday didn't make it through...

Maybe for the best, I think I was rambling...

I think Button got brought in too early in Malaysia. He likes to run long, should have brought Lewis in, he's tougher on tires and would have been a better guinea pig. After that, Jensen looked flustered and pressured. He got out of his normal rhythm and never seemed to get it back.

The new Ferrari chassis may save Massa's career if it's more agreeable than the current one. He wasn't THAT bad previously. I don't think Alonso wins against a more seasoned driver either. Perez just learned just how far he can really push. I'm sure the podium and the 2nd will dull the pain some, but he had a victory if he kept his head. Have a funny feeling he learns from it, unlike our French friend at Lotus. He doesn't seem to get the fact races aren't 5 laps long yet. I feel bad for him, he needs seat time. I wonder if he's thinking win instead of thinking survive for now. He obviously has talent. Just ask Schumacher, wins will come. You have to learn to finish first.

I think the observation of Vettle/Weber and Alonso is pretty close. Weber looks much more comfortable in a car he can move around as opposed to trying to stay within that narrow performance window. Vettle is rock solid when he's holding the edge, but having to adapt to find that edge seems to elude him. Canada last year with the changing conditions, the changes to the car during a race run now with less DF in back. He's not as adaptable as Weber or Alonso is.

I don't want to see the HRT's and the like excluded. I know purists want that 20 car field, but in the "salary cap" era, F1 will need the extra teams. As the economy fluctuates more and more, I can see F1 becoming a revolving door of teams if they aren't careful. They're already making many of the same moves (translated:mistakes) as NASCAN'T. If they keep going it won't be long till we hear boogity and Larry Mac reinventing F1-ese. They need to keep teams stable and in the show. They need to maintain the history and blood lines in the game or F1 will just devolve into just another racing series.

Lemans, Daytona Prototypes, the Rolex Series in the Sports Car ranks... All are showing growth in coverage, popularity and Manufacturer support, all of which are critical to F1's future. They don't want to end up like INDY Car with one chassis and one engine. All the different cars and such are what make F1 special to me, as it did in the past with NASCAR. I hope they don't go down that road. Last thing we need is another cookie cutter series.

Not a Ferrari fan, but looking forward to the new car, and to whether Red Bull finds an answer to the sudden realization they got caught looking at their trophies. They need some serious help if they want to retain anything close to their dominance of the last few years.

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