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Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

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Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  HWKII on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:09 pm

HWKII wrote:I'm driving pretend race cars in at least some part because I can't drive real ones, and if you wanted to make it up to me, one of you explain to me why an engine stalls if you don't use the clutch correctly? Embarassed

We were having a totally un-car related conversation in the office and I was looking to trade some of my technical know-how for mechanical know-how, and this is what followed. It was mentioned that it was a pity that it was taking place 'behind the curtain' and so, here it is. Very Happy

Also, Embarassed


Last edited by HWKII on Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  Wallhugger60 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:04 am

Lol, I don't have time now, but if nobody has replied by the time I get home I can do that. Mechanical stuff I know. Very Happy

Wall

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  clacksman on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:44 am

HWKII wrote:I'm driving pretend race cars in at least some part because I can't drive real ones, and if you wanted to make it up to me, one of you explain to me why an engine stalls if you don't use the clutch correctly? Embarassed

Pushing the clutch disconnects the engine from the transmission. You should do this anytime you are changing gear or stopping. From the transmission to the road, there's no slip unless you spin the wheels or break something, so to smoothly start from rest you need to slip the clutch a bit to get moving without stalling the engine.

Practical example: Let's say the engine idles at 1000rpm (just a guess number that's high for a street car and low for a race car) and at 1000rpm in 1st gear it travels at 10mph. Starting from 0-10 mph requires some clutch slip to do smoothly because that's the minimum road speed for engine idle speed. If you happen to get the clutch right out at 5mph, the engine is at 500rpm which won't be too smooth (this being under idle speed is called 'lugging') but may or may not hurt it (depends on car).

You regulate the amount of clutch slip with your left foot; for left foot practice start in gear on level-ish ground and get moving with no throttle (relying on the low torque of engine idle). This tells you where the portion of clutch travel in which you affect slip is. Once you can do it in first gear do it in second. What a Face

inb4 the boss talks about how highway trucks only clutch from rest and thereafter shift clutchless through a double-digit number of gears once moving

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  Forgetful on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:57 am

clacksman wrote:
inb4 the boss talks about how highway trucks only clutch from rest and thereafter shift clutchless through a double-digit number of gears once moving

Embarassed Hey! What a Face

I guess that leaves me with no brake deceleration. When I drove rig I was not to use the brakes unless absolutely necessary. Off throttle the compression of the engine absorbs a lot of power, so if you keep it in gear you get 'engine braking' as the pistons try to compress empty cylinders that aren't firing back (it's this compression that causes a stall if the car doesn't have enough momentum to overcome the compression). If your revs are low enough you can shift down a gear, resulting in a higher engine RPM and more engine braking. You can bring a big truck down from highway speed to a taxi-stop with just the gears (and jake) in a normal sized braking zone.

I kinda miss playing King of the Road.

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  clacksman on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:04 pm

Forgetful wrote:I kinda miss playing King of the Road.

Euro Truck Simulator 2. king

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  Forgetful on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:10 pm

Might as well explain the clutchless shift. There's what's called a 'split' between each gear. This is the difference in RPM for two gears to run the same road speed, usually between 500 and 800 rpm. Now, most modern cars have syncro-mesh, which helps match the gear speed to the road speed mechanically. A big rig won't have that, so the driver has to time his shifts properly. When you pull the gear to neutral to make an upshift you have to let off the throttle to let the revs fall enough to match the next gear. The next gear being larger will require a lower rpm to match the road speed. The upshift is easy. Pull lever, let off, apply pressure towards next gear until it slips in. When the teeth of the gears are travelling the same speed they mesh nice and smooth. If the revs are off the teeth don't mesh and you hear grinding.

The downshift is the tough one because you're tyring to slow down, but to go down a gear you need to bring your engine revs up. So yes, you are adding throttle as part of the deceleration process. A little unnerving the first few times, for sure, especially when you're trying not to use the brake pedal at all. This is very much akin to bliping on downshifs in a race car.

There are a lot of older race cars that were driven clutchless.


Last edited by Forgetful on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  Forgetful on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:10 pm

clacksman wrote:
Forgetful wrote:I kinda miss playing King of the Road.

Euro Truck Simulator 2. king

Don't. Tempt. Me.

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  HWKII on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:14 pm

Gooooooood, goooooooood.

Thanks clacksman, I was familiar with what the clutch does, and suspected that might have been the case but your explanation made it make a lot of sense.

I tried the SRF in manual mode with H-pattern shifter around Interlergers last night and it was.. embarrassing. Laughing

The Skippy is pretty straight forward; can use the clutch to shift up or can lift off the throttle to shift up, downshifts are pretty seamless regardless though I feel like I have pretty good timing on them to keep the RPMs up.

The SRF though taught me that I do not have enough feet. I've been left foot braking my entire life (...) and the SRF reminded me of how I felt the first time I sat down with my DFGT in GT5 with the Transmission set to Manual. Every corner it was like "WTF, THERE IS TOO MUCH TO DO!" but while I was definitely slower, consistency was easier to find as it required a lot more of my attention to the process. Even in the Skippy this is true, but especially in the SRF.

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...Just imagine: Most of them used to have engines in the front, a seat instead of a bed, and no wings. Not like cars at all.

"Nah, he didn't ram you, he rubbed you; and rubbin' son, is racin'."
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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  Forgetful on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:34 pm

That overload of inputs is what it was like learning to drive truck. It'll come, says the guy paddle shifting everything What a Face

Fanatec porsche shifters aren't very good.

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  HWKII on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Forgetful wrote:That overload of inputs is what it was like learning to drive truck. It'll come, says the guy paddle shifting everything What a Face

Fanatec porsche shifters aren't very good.

I'd better figure it out, I am insistent that my first car will be a manual. If you need me, I'll be turning Granny-speed laps around Silverstone just getting used to right foot braking... Laughing

Paddle-shifting just seems to much more civilized, even/especially with a clutch pedal as it is in the Skip (you can shift without it just by lifting, but you can also give it a bit of clutch at full throttle to upshift. I tried the Miata and kept thinking WHERE IS THE GEAR?! H-pattern shifter is hard.. Laughing

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...Just imagine: Most of them used to have engines in the front, a seat instead of a bed, and no wings. Not like cars at all.

"Nah, he didn't ram you, he rubbed you; and rubbin' son, is racin'."
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HWKII

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  group44 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:24 pm

Interesting discussion, too bad everyone can't see it. Also, having seen Stephen race, not sure I'd want his big rig filling my mirrors lol!
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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  HWKII on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:34 pm

I could split the thread and move my question about the clutch in to the Paddock, in the name of democracy 'n stuff. Wink

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...Just imagine: Most of them used to have engines in the front, a seat instead of a bed, and no wings. Not like cars at all.

"Nah, he didn't ram you, he rubbed you; and rubbin' son, is racin'."
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Clutch - Why you do dis?!

Post  Wallhugger60 on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:14 am

HWKII wrote:I could split the thread and move my question about the clutch in to the Paddock, in the name of democracy 'n stuff. Wink

Good idea...Jeff and John would prolly have some helpful hints too. I mentioned after I drove Watkins that I realized I wasn't shifting once I got into 4th cuz the Miata let me where other cars would have had an issue with either lugging or over-revving. I've driven a lot of cars over the years, but road track really is hard. When I did think to shift later in the day, I found my seat was back too far for me to fully disengage the clutch so that didn't work lol. My brother in law has longer legs I guess. I've tried shifting in the sim and it's very close to RL. There's so much going on that I blew the shift 80+% of the time. I then tried it using auto clutch which was a big help, but all the time using paddles make it a big learning curve whichever way you go. But long story short, like Stephen said it's seat time that's gonna get you better. My brother in law said that it took a good bit of time to get it to be second nature. It definitely needs to be something you don't even think about like paddles are now (for me).

Tracy

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  clacksman on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:40 am

Forgetful wrote:
clacksman wrote:
Forgetful wrote:I kinda miss playing King of the Road.

Euro Truck Simulator 2. king

Don't. Tempt. Me.

I have a pirat of it. It's literally one of the best games I've ever played. Like, top single-handful ever.

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  Forgetful on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:11 pm

Do. Want.



Where have you been all my life?

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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

Post  HWKII on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:57 am

What you wrote:
Forgetful wrote:Do. Want.



Where have you been all my life?

What I read:
Forgetful wrote:Roger roger, this is Warpath Niner One One, headin' northbound on the eye two twenty on a bobtail lookin' to get out of this window washer and in to a pickle park. I'ma shake the leaves on this here flip flop, get me some buttermilk and a nice seat cover. You got a read on me?

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...Just imagine: Most of them used to have engines in the front, a seat instead of a bed, and no wings. Not like cars at all.

"Nah, he didn't ram you, he rubbed you; and rubbin' son, is racin'."
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Re: Conversation about Clutches, shifting and Stephen's EuroTruck 2000 career.

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